Good evening all Hamptonians,

Having started a previous discussion about Station Road and been inundated with replies from other concerned individuals, I met this evening with Cllr Gareth Roberts, who has been enormously helpful and has applauded my idea that we start a campaign to make Hampton roads safer. He has alerted me to the successful '20 is plenty' campaign in Merton, and I will be contacting them shortly for some ideas and support. I would like to initiate a similar campaign here in Hampton, and I am prepared to do as much as I can to make it happen - signs to prompt drivers to slow down, especially where pedestrians and cyclists are most vulnerable.

What I need now, is you! Your concerns, ideas and a little bit of your time. I know how busy you all are, and I have been too, but I can't do this on my own!

I have set up an email account called 20isplenty4hampton@gmail.com

Bombard me! I shall also set up a public meeting with a bit more advance notice this time, and a bit later in the evening, so everyone has a chance to attend. Watch this space! And dangerous, irresponsible drivers? Stop it now, we're after you!

Here's the national website with downloadable content http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/

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I'm supportive of lower traffic speeds, but not sure of how to go about it. I think speed cameras would look ugly on Station Road. Speed bumbs maybe but for some reason they are unpopular. Also, parking enforcement seems to be non existant. I'm thinking about people parked on pavements and corners. It sounds like the political will at council level is not there.

I live just off Station Road, in Avenue Road, for some reason we get an awful lot of passing traffic, none stick to the 30 mph and our road really doesn't go anywhere. I diverse, people like me do not like speed humps because of the pain it causes. I have an arthritic back, which is painful at the best of times, although I go slower than the recommended speed over humps it still jars my back.  I would also hate to be in an ambulance in a life threatening condition, either it would be a painful journey or I might not make it to a hospital in time.  As for the lack of parking enforecement, maybe you should walk along Station Road, during the hour when there is a restriction, believe me they are there and yes they are parked partly on the pavement, as the sign says they can.  As for corners, people haven't parked (well the odd few) since the double yellow lines were installed right into our road and the other roads about a year ago.  As I said previously the buses are always going too fast down Station Road, as do a lot of the cars, speed bumps really aren't the answer.  Speed cameras not sure about, a flashing sign telling your speed and the speed limit might be an idea.  Failing that how about the odd speed check.  Oh you also have to take into consideration the police cars coming out of the Station albeit they are on the move. How would they get to an emergency?  Even central bollards wouldn't work as the buses wouldn't be able to get through.  For those of us that fought Councillor Trigg's daft measure to alter the parking in Station Road, we would not want the parking to go away, like the rest of the Borough when our road is full we need somewhere to park, especially on football days when none of us can go out as all the supporters just park where they feel like it and we cannot go out

Hello

As mentioned before - this isn't about humps. I don't want them, nor do most other people. You don't even need cameras, you just need the signage. It's possible to introduce 20MPH areas with signage alone.

20MPH in areas such as ours is gaining wider recognition as a viable model across the country - but what it needs, as Tim has mentioned is the political will at council level. 


Janice Merritt said:

I live just off Station Road, in Avenue Road, for some reason we get an awful lot of passing traffic, none stick to the 30 mph and our road really doesn't go anywhere. I diverse, people like me do not like speed humps because of the pain it causes. I have an arthritic back, which is painful at the best of times, although I go slower than the recommended speed over humps it still jars my back.  I would also hate to be in an ambulance in a life threatening condition, either it would be a painful journey or I might not make it to a hospital in time.  As for the lack of parking enforecement, maybe you should walk along Station Road, during the hour when there is a restriction, believe me they are there and yes they are parked partly on the pavement, as the sign says they can.  As for corners, people haven't parked (well the odd few) since the double yellow lines were installed right into our road and the other roads about a year ago.  As I said previously the buses are always going too fast down Station Road, as do a lot of the cars, speed bumps really aren't the answer.  Speed cameras not sure about, a flashing sign telling your speed and the speed limit might be an idea.  Failing that how about the odd speed check.  Oh you also have to take into consideration the police cars coming out of the Station albeit they are on the move. How would they get to an emergency?  Even central bollards wouldn't work as the buses wouldn't be able to get through.  For those of us that fought Councillor Trigg's daft measure to alter the parking in Station Road, we would not want the parking to go away, like the rest of the Borough when our road is full we need somewhere to park, especially on football days when none of us can go out as all the supporters just park where they feel like it and we cannot go out

Surely that is up to a vote of the people, 30 mph is quite slow when you consider things, I have been driving for 44 years, it was slow when I started and still appears the same now, and I believe a safe speed.  It only needs people to stick to it, yes we have all done over the speed limit, me included.  I came down Station Road the other day and realised I was doing 34 mph, but when I see some of the drivers and I reiterate the buses are the worse, they are doing above 40, why should the rest of the world be made to travel at 20 mph which is hard to judge when crossing a road, as I like everyone else can judge the legal speed limit. I got on buses to and fro from Kingston yesterday and thought 'they are going slowly' why? because they were actually sticking to the speed limit as they were on time.  Maybe an idea would be to get onto TFL and have tachos fitted to buses so they stick to the speed limit.  As for cars flashing warning signs should be the first stage as they have on the one way system in Kingston.  It is not economically viable to run a car (and not good for emissions) to travel around everywhere locally at 20 mph, will you pay my petrol bill for the rare occasions that I use my car?  It can't just be implemented it really does have to have the vote of the people

Hello Janice

I don't think imposition of a scheme is the way forward here, but certainly it's worth raising the issue and seeing what the response is. If there's a decent enough percentage in favour then surely it's something worth considering.

As for the fuel consumption issues there have been studies which have shown that slower driving improves fuel economy . A study in Germany where 30KMPH zones were introduced (roughly 18mph) showed gear changes reduced by 12%, braking down by 14% and, as a result, fuel consumption down by 12%. Other studies show emissions are also reduced by low speeds.

Of course I would be prepared to bet that there are other studies which will prove the exact opposite. That's life, eh?

Janice Merritt said:

Surely that is up to a vote of the people, 30 mph is quite slow when you consider things, I have been driving for 44 years, it was slow when I started and still appears the same now, and I believe a safe speed.  It only needs people to stick to it, yes we have all done over the speed limit, me included.  I came down Station Road the other day and realised I was doing 34 mph, but when I see some of the drivers and I reiterate the buses are the worse, they are doing above 40, why should the rest of the world be made to travel at 20 mph which is hard to judge when crossing a road, as I like everyone else can judge the legal speed limit. I got on buses to and fro from Kingston yesterday and thought 'they are going slowly' why? because they were actually sticking to the speed limit as they were on time.  Maybe an idea would be to get onto TFL and have tachos fitted to buses so they stick to the speed limit.  As for cars flashing warning signs should be the first stage as they have on the one way system in Kingston.  It is not economically viable to run a car (and not good for emissions) to travel around everywhere locally at 20 mph, will you pay my petrol bill for the rare occasions that I use my car?  It can't just be implemented it really does have to have the vote of the people

yes there are opposites to the fuel argument, because of my back (previously mentioned) I now unfortunatey drive an automatic, I only get 24 mpg  driving locally and most routes that I take are over humps, with variable speeds I get a lot more, it's all the stp, braking etc that causes it.  I am not against some form of slower down the traffic in Station Road, to 30mph, but 20 I am against, sorry my view, hence I think it needs to be sorted out amongst the community not all of whom are on this site. Near schools I totally agree with, no schools along Station Road, the zebra crossing is a bit hard to cross up by the green - like in Thames Street, as people do not look if they don't know it is there, how about a sign further away to warn the idiots, just might be helpful. Never did understand why it was put there (no playground then and I watch mums cross over the road by the bridge and not use it) was put there for the school children - to what school? If they hadn't moved the two bus stops near me then it could have ben placed in a different place and help slow down the traffic.  The law says about parking too near corners, yup hence we go double yellow lines.  Who in their right minds moved the bus stop to outside Tylers mum, hence blocking our view coming out of Avenue Road.  Sorry Gareth us up this end who lie off Station Road have issues anyway

Can I just add my support for a 20mph zone in Station Road?

I think someone mentioned it needs to be Borough wide, but it doesn't. Localised 20mph zones work well if implemented properly, only trouble is they are not enforceable, so the lunatics can still legally drive up to 30mph. However, if a 20mph slows the majority down then I'm all for it, especially round the corner by the playground (not just for kids safety, it would also make it easier to pull out of Ormond Drive and the bridge, as you would have more time to judge whether to pull out or not). 

How much would a 20mph add to a journey down Station Road? 20secs? 25secs? Hardly the end of the world....

The fuel argument may be illusory. In my car, the fuel consumption at 20mph in 3rd is the same as it is at 30mph in 4th, and I suspect most car gearing is similar. I suspect that the German example is actually based on people driving at an equivalent of 20mph, as to drive at 18 in some cars would force you to drive at high revs in 2nd - that would dramatically increase fuel consumption. In other words, drivers still speed, but at a lower level, in order to conserve fuel.
But aside from the technical arguments, I'm afraid that a few selfish speeders are creating a problem for the majority of safe drivers. The is no magic safe speed limit; it all depends on the prevailing conditions, and if people drove according to the conditions, we wouldn't need speed limits at all. Speed limits are a simple way for the police to enforce safe driving as they don't have to prove the driving was dangerous. As far as Station Road is concerned, it shouldn't be difficult to enforce any limit you want given that Hampton Traffic Division is actually based in the road!

Christine

Thanks for the links.  I still remain to be wholly convinced, but I have written to Rod & Anna as follows:

"I have been referred to your website by a supporter from the Hampton Peoples Network (http://hamptonpn.ning.com).  I am a bit ambivalent about this issue, though I have some sympathy for it.  There are, however, a couple of issues which I think you need to address if your campaign is to get more support:

  1. "Britain has the highest percentage of pedestrian road fatalities in Europe 22.5%".  You need to compare that figure with the percentage of Europeans who are British in order for the figure to be meaningful.  If the latter figure is less than 22.5% then the British fatality rate is higher than the European average.  However, most readers will have heard that the UK has one of the lowest road accident rates in the world, so you really need to clarify how your figure is arrived at otherwise people like me will be rather skeptical!
  2. I am sure I have driven on urban roads in Europe with 50kph (30mph) limits.  I think your assertion that "Speed limits on Britain’s urban roads are 60% higher than Europe" might be a sweeping generalisation - that might lead to readers questioning the validity of your other stats.

Hope this is useful.  Best of luck with your campaign."

Christine

No, nothing like that - that was the problem I had understanding what the website was saying.  In fact, it is a completely different point, which I missed because I was looking at a another page on the website.  Rod King has clarified below:

"Thanks for your interest and coming back to us with questions.
 
Addressing point 1, this refers to the percentage of fatalities in the country which are pedestrian. This reflects how total road danger is skewed to pedestrians. In UK it is now 24% and is one of the highest in Europe. In most Northern European countries it is around the 9-12%.
 

 
 
Hence whilst we do have one of the lowest casualty rates for the total road users, the actual road danger is heavily skewed towards pedestrians, cyclists, the young and those in lower socio-economic groups.
 
With regard to point 2 you are correct in that there are 50kmh limits on urban roads in Europe. However in Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Norway, Sweden and France there is a wide scale use of 30kmh for urban and residential roads. Yes it is a “sweeping generalisation”, but I think it brings the point home that the 30kmh “norm” in many countries is far lower than the 30mph “norm” in this country/. Of course this is not or will not be the case in Bristol, Bath, Liverpool, Warrington, Portsmouth, Oxford, Cambridge, Lancashire, Islington, Hackney, Southwark, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Camden, Waltham Forrest, York, Brighton and Hove, plus many others, where 20mph limits are being or have been rolled out across the complete authority for residential roads.
 
Thanks for the wishes on the campaign. It is going very well and I trust that it can come to Hampton soon."

I've suggested to Rod that he makes the text more consistent, so that the chart appears wherever the issue is raised; and that he avoids generalisations, as skeptics like me pick them up.  It's too easy to preach to the converted on something like this - he needs to win over people like me.

And don't worry - he is winning me over!
 

I was sitting sheltered from the rain early evening yesterday by the bus stop near the station, I was with a friend and we were watching the traffic and working out who was actually speeding or not, ok we didn't have a radar gun but we both agreed that about 10 cars went by and only one was going fast.  Normally you have to have fatalities to implement a 20 mph 'black spot' - don't get me wrong I do not want anyone to die - but in the 13 years I have lived here I have never heard of anyone having any sort of accident in Station Road, I of course could be wrong.

Sorry I feel at times people are talking about a different road to Station Road, yes I am a vulnerable pedestrian - from  what?  The cyclists that insist on riding on the pavements down Station Road, twice this week I have had a near miss with a 'grown up' on a bike.  I even told one as he narrowly missed me, that it was illegal to ride on a public footpath and I believe carries a £1000 fine.  The Penny Farthing bike, which caused much pleasue going along Station Road, actually on the road looked at ease.  You keep talking about the dangers of cars along Station Road, can we please get some of the priorities right and insist the cyclists on the pavement stick to the law and go on the road.  My son actually does cycle on the road with his son on the back, you might then get a little backing. Does the person that started this discussion actually live near Station Road?  The people that live off it do not seem to be complaining.

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